Episode 28
Rewrite Your Story with Chris Cannon
Can emotional maturity save a marriage on the brink? Join us as we uncover the incredible journey of Chris Cannon, founder of Sword and Shovel, who bravely shares his story of overcoming deep-seated fears and emotional wounds. From growing up with an emotionally distant father to grappling with feelings of inadequacy and the battle against infidelity, Chris’s narrative is both heart-wrenching and inspiring. This episode is packed with insights drawn from his personal experiences and biblical stories, emphasizing the spiritual foundation needed to rebuild one’s life.
Through candid conversation, Chris opens up about the dark moments that almost destroyed his marriage, the unexpected support from non-believers, and the critical lessons he learned about self-awareness and emotional maturity. We delve into the pervasive issues of secret shame, guilt, and the negative self-soothing behaviors that many men grapple with. Chris’s experiences underscore the importance of grace, vulnerability, and the transformative power of open, honest communication in relationships. Listeners will gain practical insights into maintaining intimacy, recognizing destructive patterns, and navigating midlife transitions with integrity.
Finally, we explore the profound impact of shame and guilt and the journey toward finding grace and redemption. Chris’s story of overcoming personal failures, leading with honesty, and seeking support offers hope and guidance for anyone fighting their hidden battles. Whether you’re dealing with emotional disengagement, the challenge of midlife reinvention, or the struggle to maintain intimacy in your relationships, this episode promises valuable lessons and inspiration for your own journey toward personal growth and emotional maturity.
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Chris Cannon is the founder and Executive Director of Shord & Shovel and a native of the South Bay in Southern California. Sword & Shovel is a non-profit that was born out of over 30 years of experience in men's ministry, combined with the profound impact of the isolation men experienced during COVID-19. Our mission is to empower men through critical care support, community building, content, and coaching.
A husband, dad, grandpa, and former pastor, Chris is devoted to leading men into discovering the overwhelming and all-consuming journey of following Jesus Christ into every aspect of their lives.
Website - Swordandshovel.com
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The One Big Thing is produced by NQR Media. NQR also produces the award-winning Ditch the Suits Podcast, of which Steve is a co-host. For more, visit https://www.nqrmedia.com/
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Transcript
Welcome to the One Big Thing podcast where inspiration beats transformation.
Speaker B:I ask men this question.
Speaker B:What's not saying no to you right now in your life?
Speaker B:What's not?
Speaker B:What's not saying no?
Speaker B:Because there's a good chance that your boss might be saying no.
Speaker B:There might be a chance that your wife might be saying no.
Speaker B:But there are things that don't say no.
Speaker B:Ben and Jerry's never says no.
Speaker B:Jack Daniels never says no.
Speaker B:Porn never says no.
Speaker B:So there are things in our world that I ask men, hey, what do you go to that never denies you never says no?
Speaker B:That might be an indication that there's something going on, that you're self soothing.
Speaker A:Well, welcome back to the One Big Thing podcast.
Speaker A:I'm your host, Steve Campbell, another previous guest connection.
Speaker A:Today I have Chris Cannon on, who is a good friend of Brett Magpion, who started this journey with me over a year ago.
Speaker A:Somebod.
Speaker A:I knew from my past that we had connected one time in person.
Speaker A:And I reached out to Brad as I was thinking about starting the show and who I could have on it.
Speaker A:And Brett was my third guest on the show, talking about his Deltum theorem and just really his life and wealth management and the true aspect of what is wealth, you know, not just the physical, but the spiritual and all that goes into it.
Speaker A:And so after every show, I asked guests like, hey, who do you know that I should know that would be a great guest on my show?
Speaker A:And Brett was gracious enough to give me several names and one of them was Chris Cann.
Speaker A:So Chris and I got to FaceTime a couple weeks ago and I said, hey, if you're willing to do this, I'll run with you.
Speaker A:Let's see if we can help a lot of people out.
Speaker A:So for those that don't know the One big thing, if you're here to champion Chris, welcome.
Speaker A:I hope it's not your last stop.
Speaker A:This is a show that's really meant to help and inspire 30 and 40 year olds that are raising families and trying to become their best selves that need practical insights, but also stories or testimonies from other people that have gone through really hard things and the lessons they've learned to realize that you are not alone in this life.
Speaker A:It's worth living.
Speaker A:You were created on purpose, for a purpose.
Speaker A:And so I'm excited for this conversation today.
Speaker A:Chris, you are hailing from California.
Speaker A:I am in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Speaker A: So it's very cool in: Speaker B:Sure, yeah.
Speaker B:I'm Chris Cannon, I'm the founder of something called, the nonprofit called Sword and Shovel.
Speaker B:And we, we don't rebuild walls, we rebuild men.
Speaker B:That's the story, that's the short version of an Old Testament story from the book of Nehemiah where there was wreckage, the men of the community undertook the challenge of each worked with a sword in one hand and a shovel in the other.
Speaker B:And so we borrow from that imagery of the need to have a weapon of warfare.
Speaker B:Not a typical weapon, but one of spiritual means, the word of God and the Holy Spirit and then the shovel, which is not something that's a sexy instrument, but necessary to do some hard work.
Speaker B:Hard work and the foundation of a man's life.
Speaker B:And so for a lot of us, me included, the shovel is the symbol of digging into the past.
Speaker B:This is sometimes the present.
Speaker B:Been building a good foundation.
Speaker B:So, you know, the idea of talking with 30, 40 year olds, man, that's, that's.
Speaker B:I've got a 33 year old son, a 30 year old daughter.
Speaker B:So this is, you know, this is familiar territory when I think about what I want from my kids to have and how they can learn from dad's mistakes and dad's victories and in the ever changing world.
Speaker B:And so I'm honored to be on the One Big Thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, this is exciting.
Speaker A:You know, as two men, obviously I think a lot of our narrative is going to be around being a man and being a father and being a husband.
Speaker A:But if you are a woman, please do not turn out from this episode as I think we'll talk about things like marriage and raising kids and what that looks like.
Speaker A:So, you know, when I have guests on, they have usually very specific things they've gone through.
Speaker A:But I never want to alienate people who might say, yeah, you know, I've like with Carl Binger, we talked about depression.
Speaker A:If you've never been depressed, I hope you didn't tune out because what an uplifting, life giving, heart wrenching conversation we had about mental health and depression.
Speaker A:In this one, you know, we're going to talk about life being men, raising families, but then just like how does our spouse fit into that?
Speaker A:And so, you know, as we talk about Sword and Shovel, you didn't just kind of stumble upon this.
Speaker A:This was something that I think came by way of, you know, just kind of your background and things you've gone through.
Speaker A:So you, you were kind of a spiritual confidant of Brett, and that's why I think he wanted to include you in this.
Speaker A:Do you kind of want to go back, you know, as far as you share some of your story for people that may not be familiar with you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let me, let me go back past my time with Brett.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:I was raised by a father who was a.
Speaker B:An engineer in mechanical engineering, worked on the Apollo rockets.
Speaker B:And, you know, in that world, in our community, the aerospace industry is a big part of the Southern California world where I live.
Speaker B:And my father never spoke three words to me.
Speaker B:One was the word love.
Speaker B:He never told me he loved me.
Speaker B:He never told me he was proud of me, and he never said he was sorry.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:To understand for me to set my.
Speaker B:The framework for my life, it starts with the very earliest ages of not getting what I thought I needed to get.
Speaker B:But I had no idea.
Speaker B:All I knew was that I did not have some essentials.
Speaker B:And I think about, ironically, when Jesus was baptized, his father said, this is my son whom I love, with whom I'm well pleased.
Speaker B:And I think, man, I sure would have loved to have gotten that from my father.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So I grew up as a young man looking for the approval of others.
Speaker B:And, and I found a space in the world of ministry where I felt like God had given me an aptitude for understanding the Bible, but also to be a listener.
Speaker B:And, and I was a.
Speaker B:I'm a people person.
Speaker B:So I found that's where I met Brett and his wife, Layla.
Speaker B:Layla was one of our high school volunteers.
Speaker B:And, and, and I really thrived in that environment.
Speaker B:But there was a dark side.
Speaker B:And the dark side was the insatiable need for the approval of others.
Speaker B:And even though I had the favor of God, I was always wanting either a professor in college or a coach in high school or a pastor at our church or an older man.
Speaker B:I was like a puppy dog wanting to be told that I was good enough.
Speaker B:And that moved me into some dark spaces later on in my life.
Speaker B:I became a pastor of a church.
Speaker B:I started a church.
Speaker B:And ultimately I found myself self soothing in the areas of pornography and infidelity.
Speaker B:Ten years ago, I resigned as the pastor of the church that I started because I was unfaithful to my wife.
Speaker B:Just FYI, I'm still married to my wife Ann.
Speaker B:We've worked through some of the hardest things we can work through in a marriage.
Speaker B:My kids love me still and they love the Lord.
Speaker B:They love their mom.
Speaker B:But I can tell you that the sword and shovel was not something I always wanted to do was the net effect of me recovering from my own failure and my own destruction and the things I had done to harm those around me.
Speaker B:And it was coming to face my biggest fear of public humiliation.
Speaker B:I used to dread.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh, what would happen if I ever was that guy that missed a free throw at the end of the seventh game of the, of the NBA championships.
Speaker B:How could I, how could I walk into Costco or Trader Joe's?
Speaker B:And how can I ever show my face in the.
Speaker B:In a community where I'm that guy?
Speaker B:Well, then, then Steve, I became that guy.
Speaker B:I became that guy in our community where I would walk into a restaurant or a store and I'd have to take look at Aisle 6 and see if there was anyone there that didn't want to see me.
Speaker B:And then learning how to recover and how to bounce back and develop resiliency and believe that I still had a life worth, worth living and I still had value to bring to my community and my life.
Speaker B:My family began the journey of sword and shovel.
Speaker A:Hey everyone.
Speaker A:Steve Campbell, thank you so much for listening to this episode.
Speaker A:If it's made an impact on you, I would love to take a moment to ask you to subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode.
Speaker A:But I would also love for you to leave a five star rating and review your ratings and review help other listeners know that this show is worth their time.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for tuning into the One Big thing and let's enjoy the rest of the episode.
Speaker A:Well, and I love that, and I want to pause right there because this is what I love about this podcast and I'm very grateful to have a platform to bring very hard conversations to the surface that need to be had.
Speaker A:You know, when you and I connected on FaceTime and you had told me about the journey, you know, with your spouse and being, you know, unfaithful to her, it's like you're going to say that on the podcast, like that's pretty vulnerable that you were the pastor of a church and, you know, obviously were unfaithful in your marriage and had to step down.
Speaker A:Like, do you feel comfortable going down that path?
Speaker A:And you did.
Speaker A:And that's the kind of stuff that not we need to flood social media with and stories.
Speaker A:But marriage is so worth it.
Speaker A:And how good is God that he restored your marriage doesn't mean he didn't have to work on things.
Speaker A:And so if you're a listener out there today and either you've gone through hard things in your marriage, or you've been unfaithful, or you've.
Speaker A:You've even had thoughts of being unfaithful.
Speaker A:Maybe you never went there, you know, because you can be raising kids and trying to figure out life and just have such tension in your marriage that, you know, it's easy to, you know, flirt a little bit too much in the office or seek that approval from people.
Speaker A:And so maybe you've never actually taken that step of had having a physical relationship with somebody.
Speaker A:But, man, there's been.
Speaker A:Maybe there's been times where you've entertained a thought a little bit too long and then you felt ashamed.
Speaker A:That, like, man, how can I go through that?
Speaker A:Let Chris's story today help you realize that he is bold enough, he's picking up his sword and his shovel to say, hey, I made some mistakes in my life, but I was willing to work on it.
Speaker A:You don't hear these kind of stories today.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:To people my age is if you're not happy in your marriage, just walk away.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Life's too short.
Speaker A:You know, go.
Speaker A:Go live your life.
Speaker A:Go do the things you want to do.
Speaker A:If your spouse isn't connecting with you, just leave them.
Speaker A:You know, it's never been easier to quit, to give up.
Speaker A:But we need to hear these stories of hard things are.
Speaker A:Hard things are what shape us into who we are.
Speaker A:So as we kind of get in your story today, I just want to let the listener know, boy, if you've gone through some really hard things in your marriage or as a parent or, you know, you've really struggled, just allow Chris's story to encourage you today that you're not alone.
Speaker A:And so just even having the courage.
Speaker A:Chris, I want to thank you as the host of the show, to even share and, you know, you talk about that, you know, share a little bit about what, what that's been like and the lessons you've learned, you know, from, you know, kind of having a scarlet letter on your ch in town, being a pastor.
Speaker A:And, you know, let me say this as somebody who's grown up in church.
Speaker A:One of the hardest callings that somebody can have on their life is being a pastor of a church.
Speaker A:My oldest brother's a pastor.
Speaker A:And the number of things that pastors have to deal with even in their own self, internally, but then keeping people in their congregation happy and filled.
Speaker A:There's so much weight and responsibility because you're talking about the spiritual reality of eternity for people.
Speaker A:And so seeking that approval, dealing with that, growing up as a kid, not having a father that said that.
Speaker A:I mean, what is, what is that journey for you been like from, you know, 10 years ago when this happened to where you are today?
Speaker A:And just the truth that you can speak to people about the hard lessons you've had to learn yourself?
Speaker B:No, it's great, great setup, Steven.
Speaker B:You know, one of the things that growing up in the church or being a part of church or church leadership is we get the message that we're our lives are lived for others.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:That we're our life.
Speaker B:My life is in service of others, especially ministry, where I used to feel like I was the bouncer outside of a really great party, that as long as you got to go inside, Steve, and have a good time, then I was, then, then I had a good time, but I never got to go in.
Speaker B:I was always like, making sure that everyone was safe and secure.
Speaker B:But then, but then I got some of this entitlement in me and I got, you know, ironically, I, I went to a 30 year high school reunion and I was a different guy at my 30 year reunion than I was when I was in high school.
Speaker B:I was confident.
Speaker B:And then, and then I, I, we call it edging in the world of sex addiction recovery.
Speaker B:It's, it's just what it sounds like.
Speaker B:It's, you get close to the edge, you have a conversation where you get your toes over the edge of the cliff and you see how close you can get before you fall.
Speaker B:And I started to do some edging and, and, and then the edging gave way to more edging and, and I was, I was, I was trying to find this acceptance and this approval, this adrenaline.
Speaker B:My first therapist said, Chris, it's like you've got an approval bucket, but there's holes in the bottom of the bucket like you, you can never get enough approval.
Speaker B:And for my wife it was like, yeah, I keep telling Chris and the church loves him, but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
Speaker B:And I, I remember coming to terms with the fact that a thousand people might like my sermon, but if one person didn't like it, I was ruined.
Speaker B:And I thought, where did this come from?
Speaker B:Where's this awful, awful stronghold of the fear of rejection and the insatiable need for.
Speaker B:The other side of the coin was the insatiable need for approval and the fear of rejection, and it was unrealistic.
Speaker B:But I carried this around.
Speaker B:And then I became adverse to criticism.
Speaker B:I got rid of emails I didn't like.
Speaker B:I blocked People I didn't want to hear from.
Speaker B:And it was.
Speaker B:It was an emotional level of immaturity.
Speaker B:I always tell pastors that success was my downfall.
Speaker B:I remember thinking that that was going to be my insulation.
Speaker B:But frankly, the more that the church grew, the more success I got, the more I tried to insulate myself from things I didn't want to hear.
Speaker B:And I had enough of a track record.
Speaker B:But, you know, I can tell you that fighting for my marriage, my wife and I both agreed that we didn't want the story to end with, With.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With God not getting credit for what he could do.
Speaker B:And for the sake of our kids and our grandkids, we needed to give them a better foundation for their marriage and for their future.
Speaker B:Then we could just opt out.
Speaker B:My wife had the.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker B:She could have opted out.
Speaker B:She had the.
Speaker B:The biblical freedom to leave me because I was unfaithful to her.
Speaker B:But she stayed and she worked through being isolated and unostracized.
Speaker B:Women treated my wife as not everyone, but as a co conspirator.
Speaker B:If she would have been a better wife, I wouldn't have done what I did, which was horrible.
Speaker B:They, you know, there was a lot of blame for her that she had to carry her own shame.
Speaker B:I carried my shame.
Speaker B:But I can tell you that, ironically, I found a lot of my friends who aren't believers in Jesus reached out to me more than my church friends did and said, I think you might need a friend.
Speaker B:My first therapist volunteered and said, hey, I heard you could use a friend.
Speaker B:And I said, I don't have any.
Speaker B:I don't have a job.
Speaker B:He said, I'm not going to charge you anything for your time for my services.
Speaker B:And, you know, I.
Speaker B:So I had people show up for me in big ways, but I learned that God's grace came in all kinds of unusual and unexpected surprises.
Speaker A:Well, and if you've never been through infidelity or an affair, it might be hard to put yourself in your shoes.
Speaker A:And maybe it's, you know, even as a listener, you're like, man, how could you do that?
Speaker A:But, but if, if we're being honest, maybe it's not an affair, but maybe it's not knowing how to deal or cope with your own insecurities that maybe you.
Speaker A:You work a little bit too much, right?
Speaker A:Maybe you're taking some extra jobs that, you know, keeps you in the office longer, keeps you having to deal with things.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I think what's interesting with your story is, is twofold.
Speaker A:I think sometimes the reality Is the people that we are expecting to be there for us the most are usually the ones that can let us down the hardest.
Speaker A:And it's the people we unexpect in our story, those secondary characters to the story that we have, that are the ones that reach out and say, chris, I was thinking of you.
Speaker A:That it's like that displacement between, like, but I wanted it to be these people, but it's not like, God, why are these people showing up?
Speaker A:And rather than questioning, it's almost like I've had to learn in my life, I don't care who it is.
Speaker A:Lord, I need some encouragement right now because I'm going through some hard things.
Speaker A:But for you, I love the idea that your marriage is restored.
Speaker A:For those that may not be able to identify with infidelity.
Speaker A:You don't just go from, you know, going to bed last night, waking up today and saying, you know, I'm going to be unfaithful, or I'm going to go look at pornography or I'm going to go screw everything up.
Speaker A:Like, it is probably a slow decline.
Speaker A:And like you said, that edging, whether it's infidelity working too much, some issue that we might be unhealthily making an idol in our life, what were the warning signs that maybe you didn't realize in the moment that now, as you've dealt with sword and shovel, that you can identify when people say, hey, you got to be careful because you're starting to go down a pretty slippery slope of not realizing what you're doing?
Speaker A:Are there.
Speaker A:Were there or are there any warning signs that might help a listener realize, like, shoot, I've been kind of making excuses for why I'm doing what I'm doing.
Speaker A:But if I'm not careful, I can take this thing way too far because I'm kind of allowing a little bit in every day.
Speaker A:So what does that decline look like?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:Great way to set that up, Steve.
Speaker B:You know, one of the things that I do with.
Speaker B:I do a lot of coaching for men, primarily men, and mostly leaders, executive leaders, or pastors.
Speaker B:And the one thing I've learned to ask men that I wish I would have asked myself, but I wasn't going to because I didn't like the answer was, are you giving yourself permission to do something that you would never encourage anyone else to do?
Speaker B:So, for instance, my infidelity started with meeting a woman from church at a local coffee place.
Speaker B:Well, Steve, if I saw you with another woman, not your wife, and you were married, and.
Speaker B:And you Were having coffee, I would, I would probably walk behind her and go like, give you the cutoff sign or like, Steve, what's going on?
Speaker B:Like that's, you know, what are you doing?
Speaker B:But I was allowing myself in the, in the decision making process between my ears of, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm not doing anything wrong.
Speaker B:I made, I made a story.
Speaker B:I stuck with it, but it was one I couldn't tell verbally out loud.
Speaker B:I couldn't tell you, hey, Steve, I was meeting with this woman for coffee, not my wife.
Speaker B:And then we went for a hike and then we went.
Speaker B:You'd go, what are you doing?
Speaker B:Like, how did you, how did you come to that conclusion?
Speaker B:So one thing I try to work with men in particularly is are you creating a narrative that isn't working for anybody but you?
Speaker B:And if you are, then how did you get there?
Speaker B:Like what?
Speaker B:Let's talk through the, let's talk through the barriers you had to jump through to get to land where you think it's okay.
Speaker B:You know, is there fantasy that you're playing?
Speaker B:Is there some self soothing?
Speaker B:What's the self talk that you're going through?
Speaker B:Because like you said, it doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker B:No one wakes up in the morning, says, I'm going to blow up my marriage.
Speaker B:It's like a gateway.
Speaker B:Drugs of pornography or flirting.
Speaker B:Or again, some of it may seem like depending where you're coming from, it gets harmless.
Speaker B:But you know, when we, when our kids started getting out of the house and my wife was going back to school, I found myself with this time, the space that I used to occupy with coaching soccer and coaching baseball and going to games and driving my kids to youth group.
Speaker B:Suddenly there was some, some voids in my, in my world.
Speaker B:And I decided to fill it with, with fantasy, with my own version of fantasy.
Speaker B:And then it turned into reality.
Speaker B:But I think that for, for, for men and women in their 30s and 40s to anticipate the empty nester time, or even when your kids are 16, 17, 18, they're still at home, but they don't need you like they used to, that's a transition.
Speaker B:And I used to always say to men between 40 and 45, you're either going to ruin yourself and reinvent yourself between 40 and 45 and, and more often than guys look at me like I'm 43, I'm 41.
Speaker B:I'm like, you know, I'm like, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, how you navigate these five years of transition, both in work and business and family and vocation may set you up for a really rough back half or a really great back half?
Speaker A:Well, I.
Speaker A:I mean, gosh, that example that you just shared about the own advice that you'd give versus another person, you know, if it's.
Speaker A:If it's hard for you to understand what Chris is talking about, you know, for a lot of us that are raising kids right now, our whole world is involved with raising kids.
Speaker A:That's all.
Speaker A:You know, and sometimes there is this thing that we do to ourselves that we kind of just wait for the next season mentally to be easier, and it's almost.
Speaker A:That becomes an idol for many of us that, like, man, when my kids are older, things will be easier.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But if.
Speaker A:If it's hard for you to understand the empty nester syndrome or your kids being out of the house because you're in your 30s right now, and it's like, I'm so far away.
Speaker A:If you've ever had a day to yourself without kids or you've been on vacation for like three or four days, there usually comes a moment where Steph and I will be without our kids for a certain period of time that we look at each other and we either start talking about our kids or we feel like something is really wrong.
Speaker A:And that's because we're so used to hearing noise.
Speaker A:We're so used to having kids need things from us that.
Speaker A:That there's not really many times that Steph and I can just connect because we're just co.
Speaker A:You know, we're co parenting in the same home, and it's like, hey, I'm going to do this.
Speaker A:And they're not bad things, but it's very easy to find yourself going through the motions of cleaning and taking care of your kids and coaching and just begin to lose intimacy.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:And I think what creates infidelity and whether it's physical relationships of the things you're talking about, or maybe it is emotionally or mentally giving yourself to a colleague that you just know doesn't give you the hard truths.
Speaker A:The thing I love about my wife the most sometimes, but is also just sometimes it drives me freaking nuts is she knows me better than anybody and she knows.
Speaker A:She knows all of my flaws, and she brings things to me behind closed doors that I don't always want to hear or are the tough conversations.
Speaker A:And what can happen is when you are confronted with something that goes against or even confirms the sneaking suspicion that you have.
Speaker A:Like, if you thought in the back of your mind, you know, I was a little.
Speaker A:I talked a little bit too much, or, I shared a little bit too much about myself.
Speaker A:And you think that.
Speaker A:And then you leave the dinner party and you drive away with your spouse, and they say something like, you were really full of yourself tonight, weren't you?
Speaker A:And it's just like, oh, gosh, somebody else saw it.
Speaker A:You get mad, you get frustrated, get angry.
Speaker A:Well, when you have these raw moments with your spouse, you can have one of two reactions.
Speaker A:You can either say, hey, I.
Speaker A:I appreciate that you call out in me the things I don't want to address, or you can become bitter.
Speaker A:But when you become bitter, that is the gateway drug to showing up Monday morning and having the, you know, person at work that says, you look great, you did a great job with that presentation.
Speaker A:I'm really proud of you.
Speaker A:Wow, Chris, what a great today.
Speaker A:And all of a sudden you're like, hey, this.
Speaker A:This approval like you talked about as a kid that you never got.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's feeding.
Speaker A:It's feeding a part of me that I didn't realize I needed.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So let's talk to then, Chris.
Speaker A:Those people that.
Speaker A:That aren't on the verge of infidelity and divorce, but they're just.
Speaker A:They're just comfortable right now, but they know something is wrong.
Speaker A:Maybe, you know, they're in a season where they're lacking intimacy between themselves.
Speaker A:Maybe they're just so busy that, like, they can acknowledge they don't feel like they're really living their lives right now.
Speaker A:Like, how do you inject life into that group or speak life into them?
Speaker A:Of, like, you got, you know, you're.
Speaker A:You're doing it.
Speaker A:And here's some things you can do to make sure you don't fall too far kind of in one direction.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, I.
Speaker B:I remember that feeling of.
Speaker B:Of someone notices me at church or at work or at the gym, and someone says, hey, you know, I.
Speaker B:You lost a few pounds.
Speaker B:Or I like that haircut.
Speaker B:Or like, that shirt looks good on you.
Speaker B:And you're like, whoa.
Speaker B:Like, my.
Speaker B:You don't say it, but you think my wife didn't notice my haircut?
Speaker B:Or my wife didn't notice that.
Speaker B:You know, that I.
Speaker B:So because you become partners in parenting, and like you said, Steve, it's not very sexy to, like, okay, who's picking up Joey from his practice today?
Speaker B:Oh, it's my turn and we're picking.
Speaker B:Are we getting Taco Bell or McDonald's tonight?
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:What do we have last night?
Speaker B:Chipotle.
Speaker B:Okay, we're going to get McDonald's.
Speaker B:And suddenly your life becomes partners in parenting and the intimacy.
Speaker B:You, you're, you're, you're running out of energy.
Speaker B:The date night used to be a movie and a dinner and a movie.
Speaker B:Now it's going to Target and coming home before the babysitters, you know, ready to go home.
Speaker B:And you're like, I'm done.
Speaker B:And you're like, what?
Speaker B:You know, is this, what is this it?
Speaker B:Are we settling into a mediocre marriage or a mediocre life of intimacy?
Speaker B:Emotional, spiritual, physical.
Speaker B:And I, I asked this question.
Speaker B:A lot of leaders, is there someone that you see regularly that when they're not there, you're disappointed?
Speaker B:And for a pastor might be, is there a person at church that you sit, sits normally about 2 o'clock from the pulpit and then she or he's not there, then you're like, oh man, I wanted to see her.
Speaker B:Or is there someone at work that when you, when they deliver the, you know, the, the product from the, the company, you're like, oh, I'll see her or him tomorrow at 2 o'clock.
Speaker B:They drop by and then, and those are, they're non verbal, but they're cues.
Speaker B:Like, what is going on with me?
Speaker B:Like, I wasn't, I wasn't open for business three years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but suddenly I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing so and so, or I'm looking forward to that conversation going a little bit beyond traditional work related dialogue that if my boss walked by and heard me say something, I might be dinged by HR for that one.
Speaker B:But I'm going to play games with it.
Speaker B:I'm going to we again, like we call it edging, where we're just trying to touch that junior high, high school feeling of excitement and adrenaline.
Speaker B:And then before long, you know, it's very easy to just start drifting into that space where there's a point of no return.
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Speaker A:Well, and it's, it's for us too.
Speaker A:Like, there's extremes.
Speaker A:You don't hear too many people that said, hey, this weekend I hired a prostitute.
Speaker A:Like, you'd be like, oh, God, that's filthy.
Speaker A:Why would you do that?
Speaker A:Or, hey, I cheated on my spouse.
Speaker A:But people aren't with you all the time.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And so it's like, what are the things that you're entertaining on the computer or in your mind or the, the flirtation stuff that no one knows.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And unless you say it, they're never gonna, they're never gonna see it.
Speaker A:But it' shame, if you will, that in the moment, we're human beings, we have ego, we have needs.
Speaker A:Can fill that bucket in your life for however long you entertain that thing that you do.
Speaker A:But I can guarantee you when it's wrong, the moment that you're done right, doing whatever you did, the amount of guilt and shame that is a spider sense tall tell that you're doing it wrong, that exists whether you know God or not.
Speaker A:We were all designed to understand our creator.
Speaker A:And if, if it's very hard to believe the Bible, I get that, you know, if you've had bad experiences in church, you know, if somebody was in your church, the honest truth is that if their pastor got asked to step down because of infidelity, what would make them believe that God is worth pursuing?
Speaker A:If the person at the top is making bad choices, then how in the world am I supposed to believe that God is with me and for me?
Speaker A:But what you can see is in nature, in, in, in seasons, and in those moments of.
Speaker A:We are all aware of sin whether we understand it as a word or not.
Speaker A:Because when you do wrong, the guilt and shame that you feel when that starts to wear off is, I think then when people get caught or discovered, right.
Speaker A:That it is, you know, it's exhilarating to do something you're not supposed to do.
Speaker A:I mean, what do you, what do you.
Speaker A:I'm a dad.
Speaker A:You know, I tell my kids, don't do something, and the first thing they do is do the thing I told them not to do.
Speaker A:And they look at me and go, it was an accident.
Speaker A:No, it's not.
Speaker A:We all are predispositioned to do the wrong things.
Speaker A:And that's why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So, man, when you, when you talk with men, when you talk with people again, my, My hope in this show is, are we going to reach everybody that's on the verge of making a Mistake?
Speaker A:No, but I would imagine that there's a lot of people that are just kind of floating in this space right now that they don't even realize or can put their finger on as to what's happening.
Speaker A:But as you and I are talk, something is happening inside of them where it's like, holy crap, I guess I didn't realize what I was doing to cope.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:With the hard things I'm dealing with.
Speaker A:So how do you begin to unwind?
Speaker A:How do you break, we talk about biblically, strongholds.
Speaker A:How do you break strongholds?
Speaker A:In a way, Is it a one time thing that you do?
Speaker A:Is it a, is it a, a scheduled thing?
Speaker A:Or is it, is there a routine or a cadence to life like in your coaching in working with probably men and in churches?
Speaker A:How do you begin to break down strongholds?
Speaker A:Or if strongholds is too spiritual reward for you, just patterns that lead you to demise.
Speaker A:Like, how do you begin to address those?
Speaker B:Steve?
Speaker B:You know, and I, I can say that if, if you're, if you're a woman and married to a man who's used to spect a man, he's not, he's got temptations like every man does.
Speaker B:You want your husband to be part of this conversation because he's got insecurities.
Speaker B:He may look like he's got going on perfectly.
Speaker B:He's crushing it at work, he's crushing it at CrossFit, and he's a great dad and he's, you know, all those things.
Speaker B:But there may be some real insecurity that's under the surface.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:I ask men this question.
Speaker B:What's not saying no to you right now in your life?
Speaker B:What's not saying no?
Speaker B:Because there's a good chance that your boss might be saying no.
Speaker B:There might be a chance that your wife might be saying no.
Speaker B:But there are things that don't say no.
Speaker B:Ben and Jerry's never says no.
Speaker B:Jack Daniels never says no.
Speaker B:Porn never says no.
Speaker B:So there are things in our world that I know, I ask men, hey, what do you go to that never denies?
Speaker B:You never says no.
Speaker B:That might be an indication that there's something going on, that you're self soothing.
Speaker B:But we go back to the Garden of Eden and as soon as Adam and Eve made a decision, one decision, as you pointed out, Steve, they were met with fear, shame, and guilt.
Speaker B:There were three emotions that did not exist in the world up until that very moment.
Speaker B:And as soon as they take and eat of the fruit, they experience separation, shame and fear.
Speaker B:And they have A conversation with God where they're hiding and they're clothing themselves.
Speaker B:And it's basically, we made a bad choice.
Speaker B:And God says, who told you you were naked?
Speaker B:And we know that God didn't tell them they were naked.
Speaker B:But I think the reminder is that we have gotten, we've been informed as people, men and women, we've been informed by society or by parents or by friends or family.
Speaker B:This is who you are.
Speaker B:And we've come to a conclusion about ourselves.
Speaker B:And so part of what I work with is what messaging have you received about yourself?
Speaker B:And I try to correct the faulty messaging.
Speaker B:And you've got to lead with grace.
Speaker B:You've got to lead with vulnerability.
Speaker B:And in the recovery world that I'm a part of, both as a participant and a leader is contingent upon honesty and grace.
Speaker B:Grace and truth.
Speaker B:Jesus was a man of grace and truth.
Speaker B:Truth.
Speaker B:And so we practice a lot of leading with truth and honesty.
Speaker B:And then the response of the community is grace.
Speaker B:And so I, I just took a ten year chip, Steve, which means that I've got ten years and three weeks of sobriety from sexual sin, which means no masturbation and no porn for 10 years in three weeks.
Speaker B:And when I go to meetings and usually you'll say something like, I'm Chris, I'm a sex addict and I've got, got 10 years, three weeks of sobriety.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people who assume that I'm bulletproof now because I've got all that sobriety.
Speaker B:So what I do about every other week is I'll say, hi, I'm Chris, I'm sober today.
Speaker B:But then one guy told me, hey, Chris, guys in their 30s need to know that guys like you have sobriety for 10 years.
Speaker B:They need to hear your story.
Speaker B:So I'm torn between, do I tell you how much sobriety I have because it's the honest truth, or do I tell you that I'm just barely getting by because the reality is I can slip any day.
Speaker B:I can fall any, I can fall any day.
Speaker B:The day that I'm going to fall is the day they don't think I'm going to fall.
Speaker B:But, but to, to, to your point, it's, let's start with the fact that you can't tell me anything that's going to shock me because I'll start with telling you about myself first.
Speaker B:So that way you know that you, that, that I'm, I'm not better than you.
Speaker B:I blew up my church, people got fired and people got laid off at my church because the tithes and offerings went down, because I resigned because of my hypocrisy, people lost their jobs.
Speaker B:I mean, I told my three adult kids, one on one, face to face, eyeball to eyeball, that I cheated on their mom and could not be their pastor.
Speaker B:I never want to do that again.
Speaker B:I never want to face my kids or explain to my grandkids why I'm not a pastor anymore.
Speaker B:But that's part of my life and it's part of leaning into the grace of God as I'm forgiven.
Speaker B:I'm doing this for me now.
Speaker B:I'm not doing this just for you or for your family, Steve.
Speaker B:I did my.
Speaker B:I served my whole life pretty much for the sake of others approval and that's no way to live.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So to give people a little bit of a background, I knew this conversation was supposed to happen today exactly the way that it was supposed to go, because we're going to help a whole lot of people, but it almost didn't happen.
Speaker A:For those of you guys that aren't aware of podcasting prior to we probably spent 25 minutes before we came on trying to clear technical issue that we had another recording happening simultaneously.
Speaker A:And this platform does not allow us to record two show at the same time.
Speaker A:We waited and thought, Chris, are we really going to try to attempt this?
Speaker A:This seems like it's taken a while, but we got some random customer support person that said, hey, I'll grant you one time to be able to record simultaneously.
Speaker A:And I know why.
Speaker A:It's because this conversation is going to set a lot of people free.
Speaker A:And it's exactly the conversation that we needed to have because there's people living with shame, guilt and fear out there today, whether they've spoken at their bodies, their body language shows it or whatever, or they just are suffering in silence.
Speaker A:You may not identify with depression, but you may understand that, man, there are some shortcomings in your life and you don't know how to talk about it.
Speaker A:A couple of things I want to bring to life that you said that are just so powerful is what are those things in your life that don't say no to you or don't deny you?
Speaker A:That's a great place to start because in, you know, my journey that is so real that when you are denied or told no by a spouse, when you're trying to be intimate or by people that you want their approval and they say no, boy, that does something to you.
Speaker A:So to be consciously aware of what are those things that never say no to me and how do I begin to distance myself from them?
Speaker A:But also, you had to have very hard conversations.
Speaker A:And so I want to be mindful of your time, because I know we had a hard stop today.
Speaker A:You had to have conversations with your three adult children, but also the one that you let down dealing with the aftermath of what you did.
Speaker A:I wonder about those people that know right now in their own personal life, there are some things that they wish they could tell somebody about, whether it's a spouse.
Speaker A:They want to be able to have a hard conversation, but they're terrified.
Speaker A:They're terrified that if they speak up, the whole thing's going to blow up.
Speaker A:Chris, you are a testimony to.
Speaker A:Is it better to live with shame and let it blow up on its own or to come clean?
Speaker A:Maybe it's not infidelity.
Speaker A:It could be.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:How do you coach and encourage the listener who's out there today that through this, you know, 35 minutes that we've been talking through so far, they have this conviction right now that they need to be honest.
Speaker A:And it may not be evil, sin, sexual.
Speaker A:It could just be, you know, you've been spending too much time at the gym, right, because you're doing it unhealthily to escape.
Speaker A:Or maybe you're, you know, overeating, or maybe you're doing, you know, spending too much time with the boys or, you know, with your girlfriends, or, you know, you're just doing something, you know you shouldn't do.
Speaker A:What are the steps from that person that feels that fear and trepidation of.
Speaker A:Of.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I can't say anything.
Speaker A:I'll ruin my marriage.
Speaker A:Like, how do you give grace?
Speaker A:Or what are the mechanics that if you could coach anybody, talk about the worth of it and how you would go about doing it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Our.
Speaker B:My first question on a coaching call or a group call is always the same.
Speaker B:What's the one thing you don't want to talk about but need to talk about?
Speaker B:And everyone groans, everyone knows the question's coming, but I still ask it anyhow.
Speaker B:What's the one thing you want to talk about, need to talk about, but don't want to talk about?
Speaker B:Talk about.
Speaker B:And it might be.
Speaker B:It might be insignificant in my mind.
Speaker B:Like, I don't ever say.
Speaker B:And I would never want to even hint, like, really.
Speaker B:But it.
Speaker B:It might be that, you know, I was short with my wife the other day on the phone call.
Speaker B:The phone with her.
Speaker B:Or might be that I.
Speaker B:Any.
Speaker B:Anything that.
Speaker B:Because what I want to start with is how would it feel to not have any secrets.
Speaker B:Well, can you describe that to me?
Speaker B:And you know, yeah, like, oh my gosh, it'd be light.
Speaker B:I would, I would smile.
Speaker B:I wouldn't be so worried about things.
Speaker B:And for a lot of men, it's provision.
Speaker B:For a lot of women, it's insecurity about the future, financially and emotionally and spiritually.
Speaker B:But whether that's a man's fear of being an inadequate provider or a woman's anxiety about what about the future, we internalize a lot of those things.
Speaker B:And so when I work with men primarily is, hey, let's put her on the table.
Speaker B:And we talk about bringing, bringing into the light, bringing that thought and that emotion into the light, because the light, darkness hates the light.
Speaker B:And when we meet those fears and insecurities with grace and forgiveness and acceptance and understanding and empathy, it's liberating.
Speaker B:And so we really want men to understand.
Speaker B:What you're facing is you're not alone.
Speaker B:Because there's a genuine fear that I'm the only person who has this thought or this feeling or this, this spiritual dynamic of if I told anyone at church what I'm thinking, they're going to think I'm a freak, or anybody for that matter.
Speaker B:So we start with what's something that is, is eating you up on the inside.
Speaker B:And I'll tell you this.
Speaker B:You know, to any man, you're not going to die.
Speaker B:But the fear, the fear, Steve, it's irrational, is if I tell you what I'm thinking, I'm going to die.
Speaker B:If I tell my wife what I'm, what I'm worried about, I'm going to die.
Speaker B:Like, literally going to die.
Speaker B:Like I'm going to die right in the middle of this conversation.
Speaker B:Part of recovery for me, Steve, was, was putting together a disclosure that, that walked my wife from when I first found pornography at the age of eight to, to all the way to present day sexual sin or acting out or anything.
Speaker B:And I had to take a polygraph exam to verify the validity of my disclosure, then read my disclosure to my wife in front of her therapist and separate for three days while she recovered from the weight of my past, even before I knew her.
Speaker B:But I didn't die, Steve.
Speaker B:I didn't die.
Speaker B:Our marriage didn't end, but the truth came into the world and into our relationship in a way that was liberating.
Speaker B:And so I.
Speaker B:The truth will set us free.
Speaker B:I mean, it sounds like a joke, it sounds like an old punchline, but the reality is that the truth in the context of grace can Change lives.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I wonder how many people out there today are living in that shame and guilt for whatever it may be.
Speaker A:And they're afraid to.
Speaker A:To speak up.
Speaker A:They're afraid to tell somebody because the human.
Speaker A:The human mind, the enemy can create thousands of scenarios that will never happen that seems so real.
Speaker A:They cause anxiety.
Speaker A:They call clamming.
Speaker A:They make you exhausted.
Speaker A:This weight that you can carry to live a life without secrets.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We call it catastrophizing.
Speaker B:That idea that if I did that, like you said, you know, if I tell you this, that the world's going to end.
Speaker B:It's going to.
Speaker B:It's going to dump on me.
Speaker B:You know, the irony is the very thing that you're afraid will happen will probably almost certainly not happen if you tell the truth.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, when you're married, you make vows to each other on your wedding day that aren't just words that you say to go have a cocktail party.
Speaker A:It's, you know, for richer, poorer, for, you know, till death do his part.
Speaker A:And, you know, my marriage, the hardest parts with Steph, the most hard conversations around finances, around parenting.
Speaker A:I blew it around loving her.
Speaker A:You know, my wife wants to be loved a certain way, and I can be so foolish and prideful to believe that she's going to be loved the way I want to love her.
Speaker A:But I've had to learn, you know, we're going on 11 years of marriage here.
Speaker A:I feel like we're finally just starting to scratch the surface on what it truly means to be one.
Speaker A:Not.
Speaker A:Not, hey, I'm going to love you the way I.
Speaker A:In that.
Speaker A:I think this is what we do.
Speaker A:And I don't know if you've experienced this.
Speaker A:I feel like the things that we put out as individuals are secretly the way that we want to be loved or that we.
Speaker A:We want to be validated.
Speaker A:And what happens is in marriage, when you marry somebody very different than you, wired, different than you, and they have different love languages.
Speaker A:When you're not meeting those things, your stubbornness can kick in and say, like, well, why don't they appreciate that we don't have the money to give gifts or to spend time together.
Speaker A:Do things.
Speaker A:Find a way to do it.
Speaker A:You know, my.
Speaker A:My hope for this show is that people can come get a little bit of something from each person's story.
Speaker A:And if this conversation today was maybe it's time to have the hard conversation, that maybe isn't so hard.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean that once it's out there, there isn't Healing.
Speaker A:And I can only think about your wife and having to take those three days and indigest it.
Speaker A:But she did in champion her shout out to her.
Speaker A:I mean she's, she's the real hero in this story because life is about restoration.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes we are afraid that if people only saw the broken things in my life, they would realize I'm fraudulent.
Speaker A:But when the Bible talks about that in our weakness, he is made strong in our American culture, we do not ever want to acknowledge the weaker things because it comes off as being, you know, we're not good enough.
Speaker A:And this is what I've always said in Bible studies and in discipleship groups with men.
Speaker A:The moment that you can actually understand that you are not good enough.
Speaker A:Not, not in a way that's like woe is me, but just I am not good enough.
Speaker A:That's where the freedom can start to say, but God, it's because of who you are that in my weakness I can be made strong.
Speaker A:And the enemy will make you, you know, accuse you.
Speaker A:You're not good enough.
Speaker A:And there's guilt associated with that.
Speaker A:What we need to do is take that coin that can be flipped on either one side of itself or the other.
Speaker A:Pride and humility, two very hard and diabolically different qualities that live on two sides of a coin.
Speaker A:If you're not careful, you're operating in one over the other and being aware of how to do that same thing.
Speaker A:When the Bible gives you truths that you in and of yourself are not good enough, the enemy will use those same words to create conviction and make you feel isolated.
Speaker A:It's learning how to identify.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:You're absolutely right, Satan, I am not good enough.
Speaker A:But it's not in a place of woe is me.
Speaker A:It's a place of.
Speaker A:Because of that God can set me free.
Speaker A:Chris, I want to make yourself available with, with the show note information and just your vulnerability if guys want to get in touch with sword and Shovel in the organization.
Speaker A: alk about being vulnerable in: Speaker A:I feel like so many people today and I want to thank you for this here at the end.
Speaker A:So many people are so desperate for truth and reality that it's not always social media.
Speaker A:The stories that we see, the flashing of, you know, of, of just instant messages that's always coming through.
Speaker A:It's very hard to understand what's real life when everybody has the beautiful home and the Beautiful marriage and the perfect family that it took a thousand pictures to get that one.
Speaker A:I think we're all so desperate to feel not alone, but also find authentic truth.
Speaker A:And I don't know of too many podcasts that are talking about infidelity, pornography, sexual sin, shame, guilt as a means to say, this doesn't have to be the end of your story.
Speaker A:So to you, you know, I want to say thanks and, you know, as we bring this show to a close, one of the things I kind of had you prepare for, which has been a staple, is a start, Stop, continue, where I have each guest kind of share something as intimate or as open as they want to be about something they want to start doing, stop doing, or continue doing.
Speaker A:But before we jump into that, anything that we've discussed, you know, through this first 45 minutes that you want to make sure that, you know, you get out before you jump right into those, you know.
Speaker B:No, I think, Steve, the.
Speaker B:What you may.
Speaker B:What we may think is, is plan A and only plan A, and there is no plan B.
Speaker B:You, you and I, all of us may discover that what we thought we were going to be doing isn't what we're going to be doing.
Speaker B:I thought my life was wrapped up and I was going to retire as Pastor Chris and sail into a future of pickleball and fishing.
Speaker B:It hasn't quite gone that way, but it's gone the way that God wanted it to go in terms of redemption and restoration.
Speaker B:I never wanted to have this be my story.
Speaker B:I never wanted to be known as that guy, the porn pastor, or I didn't want to be that guy.
Speaker B:But, but I'm, I'm, you know, I, I have a conviction from the Book of Nehemiah when he's working and, and his enemies try to get him to leave the work, and he says, I'm carrying on a great work and can't leave it.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:Why should the work stop?
Speaker B:Will I leave it and come down to you?
Speaker B:And I believe that all of us have a great work to do.
Speaker B:The work may not be our vocation, may be how we raise our money, but it may be any number of things.
Speaker B:But what's important is that we don't compromise the great work God's called us to do and believe that every one of us has a great work to do.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I mean, way to send that for the end is we many times don't understand the multiple paths that God may be laying in now because while we're playing checkers, he's Playing chess and he's moving pieces all the time for the good of his glory and we can't always see it.
Speaker A:And just my hope is that listening to this episode today, no matter where you are, you realize your story's not over.
Speaker A:If there's guilt, shame or things you're living with that if you need to have hard conversations, you might be entering the greatest years of breakthrough, but the enemy will make you believe that.
Speaker A:You can't tell anybody, holding back that breakthrough because I think he also understands what's on the other side.
Speaker A:So again, to you, thank you for bringing to light the fact that your story's not over and that things can happen, but things can change and be restored.
Speaker A:But let's hop right into the start.
Speaker A:Stop, continue.
Speaker A:Give me whatever the action is in the item and I'll just listen and we'll, we'll take it.
Speaker B:I love these start, stop, continue.
Speaker B:Start taking chances.
Speaker B:If I don't do it, no one else is going to.
Speaker B:So start taking chances.
Speaker B:Starting not starting a non profit for me, Sword and shovel at age 62 was, you know, people, my friends are retiring and I'm starting a business.
Speaker B:So start taking chances.
Speaker B:They will.
Speaker B:No one will take them for you if you don't take them yourself.
Speaker B:Stop worrying about the opinions of others.
Speaker B:Man, that was, that killed me for so much of my life was.
Speaker B:What do people think about me?
Speaker B:What do people think about what I'm saying?
Speaker B:My sermon.
Speaker B:So stop worrying about what others think and continue telling the truth and believing that if I'm not dead, God's not done.
Speaker B:So I believe I'm not dead, therefore I believe God's not done.
Speaker B:So I'm going to continue to press into that belief that my best days are ahead of me, not behind me.
Speaker A:I mean, that could have been the entire episode right there.
Speaker A:If I'm not dead, then God's not done.
Speaker A:Whether you believe in what Chris and I believe or not, or you're desperately searching for truth, just know that if you got breath in your lungs, your story's not over.
Speaker A:And no matter what you've been through, you do not have to be a victim.
Speaker A:Whether it was decisions that you made, right?
Speaker A:And we've addressed those.
Speaker A:But also no one would have blamed you if having an emotionless father growing up caused you to be a shell of yourself the rest of your life, culture and society today would want to champion the fact that Chris, it's okay to be hurt.
Speaker A:It's okay to be a victim.
Speaker A:It's okay to never be your best self.
Speaker A:Because, man, you've gone through some hard things, but you and I would look each other dead in the eye and say, I did.
Speaker B:Did.
Speaker A:But that doesn't mean I get to be a shell of myself the rest of my life.
Speaker A:It means that there's something I have to do with that and probably go give away the thing that I so desperately wanted, which is someone to encourage me, those fatherly figures.
Speaker A:And so I can understand that from your childhood growing up, whatever you didn't receive, I would imagine you've given back a thousand fold to other men that so desperately wished that, you know, you're giving away the thing that you wanted the most.
Speaker A:And that's the thing I've learned about my life with the Lord.
Speaker A:Use the things that many times you wish you had and give it away to somebody else.
Speaker A:So, Chris Cannon, you did a masterful job on the One Big Thing podcast.
Speaker A:To all of your family and friends, love you guys.
Speaker A:Thank you for checking out his episode.
Speaker A:I hope you will check out other guests their stories.
Speaker A:I've tried to label every single episode with a good idea of what it's about, their show notes to it.
Speaker A:So if there's anyone that resonates with you, you know, feel free to go check it out.
Speaker A:But you, Chris, are going to set a lot of people for you, whether they realize it or not.
Speaker A:And I just want to thank you for taking the chance and coming on the show.
Speaker B:Been an honor to be with you, Steve, and I look forward to doing it again.
